Question: Do you believe that a division exists between those who deny the self and those who do not?
Answer: Actually, the more we deny our self, the more we will be related with others, not only with those who deny themselves but also with those who do not deny themselves. Instead of separating ourselves from those who do not deny themselves, we will be sympathetic toward them. Division is due to different denominations, sects, and organizations. We must give up organization, denominations, and sects, but we must not give up the dear saints.
Question: In that case, do you feel one cannot experience a normal church life within a denomination?
Answer: It is impossible to have a normal church life in a denomination. Although I love all the Lord’s children, I must be honest with them before God. The matter of denominations is the most sinful thing. How much damage has been done to the Lord’s Body by denominations! Nevertheless, my ministry is to minister Christ to people, to help them to know Christ and to realize the genuine church life. If we love the Lord and take Him as our life, experiencing Him day by day, we will be outside the denominations.
Question: Should our children continue to attend a denomination in order to be taught the Bible?
Answer: The Lord’s children need to learn one thing, that is, to consider the Lord’s will and nothing else. We must do the Lord’s will regardless of everything. We should be assured that if we do the Lord’s will, the Lord will bless us and take care of our children. Sooner or later we will see the Lord bless our family. Our only consideration must be the will of the Lord, and we must be bold to act according to this will. Everything else will be taken care of by the Lord.
Question: In the past many have taken a similar stand to yours and called people out of the denominational way, but then they fell into the same error of sectarianism or denominationalism. How can we preserve ourselves from this?
Answer: In the past centuries quite a number of the Lord’s saints called people out of denominations. However, I am not calling people to leave the denominations; I am ministering Christ to them. When we live by Christ, something will happen. It is an empty thing simply to call people to leave denominations, and it does not work. Instead, we should minister Christ to people and help them to experience Him day by day. Christ will energize and strengthen them to go on, and they will be filled with Him. If they experience Christ in a practical way, they will certainly give up denominations. Yet for them to give up denominations is merely a small thing on the negative side. It is a much greater matter for them to live Christ that Christ may be expressed. We must pay our full attention to this positive aspect.
Question: If, as a group, we are experiencing the Body of Christ, what should our attitude and relationship be to other true, regenerated believers, who are our brothers even though they do not experience the Body?
Answer: Concerning all genuine, regenerated believers, we must be absolutely open to them. We should never think that we are different from them. They are the Lord’s children, and we are also; we are believers, and they are as well. Therefore, we should be open to them and endeavor to fellowship with them. If possible, we should help them and also receive help from them.
Today what we emphasize is not leaving the denominations but experiencing Christ. My attitude is not to pay attention to the matter of denominations but simply to minister Christ to others. As long as we experience Christ, the Christ whom we experience will do many things within us. This is something positive. Merely to leave the denominations and attempt to practice the Body life is empty, and it is not what we are seeking today. If we are not seeking and experiencing Christ as our life, and if it is not Christ in us who energizes us and makes us clear concerning God’s will, we should not leave our denomination. Actually, it is better to remain there. We must allow Christ to bring us out of all the hindrances and things that are foreign to the Body of Christ.
Furthermore, even our talk about the Holy Spirit may be unrelated to Christ. The Pentecostal movement began in England in the middle of the nineteenth century. When those in the Pentecostal movement speak of the Holy Spirit, it is not related to the experience of Christ in daily life. Thirty years ago in China there were five different branches of the Pentecostal movement: the Assembly of God, the Apostolic Faith, the Jesus Home, the True Jesus Church, and the Spiritual Grace movement. The Spiritual Grace movement was the most prevailing, and in a short time it swept through all of northern China, including my hometown and province. Day after day they spoke of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, but they simply did not know how to experience Christ as their life. Hence, this movement did not last long. We certainly do not oppose the Holy Spirit; indeed, we need the Holy Spirit. But we need to realize that the genuine experience of the Holy Spirit is for glorifying Christ. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ (Rom. 8:9); not only so, the Lord Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit came, He would not speak from Himself but would glorify Christ (John 16:13-15). Today there is too much talk about the Holy Spirit and very little experience of Christ. I discovered the shortcomings of these Pentecostal groups by attending their meetings and spending many days with them. Apparently, in their meetings they were powerful, but as soon as they went home, the husbands lost their temper with their wives. When they prayed, “Hallelujah! Thank You, Jesus. Hallelujah!” it seemed that the Holy Spirit was with them, but the reality of Christ as life was missing. Thus, I doubted whether in fact it was the Holy Spirit whom they were experiencing.
The problem is this: If we experience something of the Holy Spirit but do not go further to apprehend and experience Christ as our life, there will be an opening for the enemy to do things to damage the Lord’s work. Recently an Episcopal priest brought a certain revival into the Episcopalian church by helping people to experience the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. However, later someone in the inner circle of that movement admitted that they needed something more. The so-called experience of the Holy Spirit is just a beginning and should lead us to Christ. One brother has compared the situation among the Pentecostals to the time when Abraham sent his servant to find a wife for his son Isaac. The servant gave Rebecca many gifts for the purpose of leading Rebecca to Isaac so that she might be married to him. Regrettably, today’s “Rebecca” is satisfied just to have the gifts. A gift should bring people to its giver. Like Rebecca, we should not value the gift but should treasure our Husband, Christ. However, most Pentecostal believers are satisfied with gifts such as speaking in tongues and divine healing. They “play” with the gifts and forget the Giver. I observed and studied all these things. Not one of the five Pentecostal groups in China lasted very long, and I did not see anyone among them grow deeper in his spiritual life.
In fact, from its beginning in 1927 the Spiritual Grace movement lasted only ten years. During that time it swept through the whole of northern China. Not only was it short-lived; it also caused much damage to the preaching of the gospel because those in that movement went to extremes. Some of them, under the influence of being “full of the Holy Spirit,” left their families, homes, wives, and children in order to go to distant places to preach the gospel. Because they felt that they were filled with the Holy Spirit, they did peculiar and even shameful things in their meetings. There were some who were called “holy jumpers” and others who were called “holy rollers.” We need to be impressed that the Holy Spirit is the One who bears witness to the Lord Jesus, who declares Christ to us, and who makes Christ real to us as our life. Whenever we experience the Holy Spirit, we need to turn ourselves to Christ. The more we experience Christ, the safer it is. Our urgent need today is to know and experience Christ and then to have the genuine church life. We need to be very general and not hold on to anything special. We must also be moderate and not practice anything that is extreme. With the Pentecostal experiences, some part is genuinely of the Holy Spirit, but a great part is of human emotion. After Pentecostal believers receive the experience of the Holy Spirit, they become emotional. Hence, their experience is a manifestation not of divine power but of human emotion. They mix emotional things together with spiritual things. In contrast, we need to be very moderate and general, and we need to learn to apply the cross to our old man. Then we will be saved from an emotional atmosphere, and we will be preserved in the genuine experience of Christ.